"Relating Deeply and Facing Reality" with Ashok Panikkar
The guest in this episode is Ashok Panikkar, founder of Meta-Culture. Ashok is committed to helping develop the knowledge, skills and dispositions that are vital to strengthening the culture of democracy in the face if the eroding of confidence in liberal democracies and the rise of illiberal and authoritarian regimes. Ashok teaches various courses, one of which is called DemoSapiens: Conflict, Culture and Democracy. The course and this episode promises to get us to question everything we thought we know about democracy, rights and freedom.
In this conversation we talk about how democracy depends on people understanding our interrelatedness and highlights the importance of developing quality relationships. We talk about how conflict and diversity are deeply connected with each other and how both require care and attention. The way that we engage with conflict and diversity can lead to either positive or negative experiences.
We talk about facing reality, and how despite what it seems, we are living in the best time in history. We need to be thoughtful and careful about what parts we want to criticize or change, and what parts we want to keep the same. We talk about how our current culture (especially capitalism) encourages the "Commodification of the soul." We consider the power of understanding that as individuals we are pretty small in the big picture and this understanding can liberate us from the prison of identity and as free individual we can really embrace the joy of living in uncertainty and complexity.
In his DemoSapiens course, Ashok said that, "If this doesn't disturb you, then either he's not doing his job or we're missing the point.” I think that is true for this episode as well, So fasten your seatbelts and get ready to question everything we thought we know about democracy, rights and freedom.
Ashok Resources
Follow Ashok on Facebook.
Visit Ashok's blog or the Meta-Culture website.
Listen to the previous episode of Fractal Friends, "The Urgency of Citizen Participation" with Ashok Panikkar
Register for the DemoSapiens Course
(September 24- December 10)
Other Resources
Here are resources about some of the things that came up in this conversation.
Interdependence and Belonging
At one point I use the symbolism of Indra's Net to talk about our interdependence.
The conversations about belonging in this episode reminds me of the work of john a. powell. John powell is an author, professor and founder of the Othering & Belonging Institute. Check out the video “Bridging: Towards A Society Built on Belonging” for a taste of his work.
Ashok Panikkar
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Editorial Cartoon by Graeme MacKay, The Hamilton Spectator – Wednesday March 11, 2020
Graeme MacKay and addition by unknown artist.
Read about the progression of this comic here.
Modernism & It's Discontents
In this episode Ashok and I talk about modernity (Enlightenment thinking) being squeezed between the traditionalist far right and the progressive far left. This article, “A Manifesto Against the Enemies of Modernity” by Helen Pluckrose and James A. Lindsay, is what prompted this contemplation.
Below are the lists I used as comparison between modernist culture and white supremacy culture, that prompted my further provocation of the issue. I recognize that this is not a perfect parallel and that the issue is way way more complex than my distillation. For example, “white supremacy culture” focuses on the negative aspects of modernity which deserve to be addressed. I'm interested to hear your reflections and feedback if you find this disturbing. If you want a counter-balance, please check out these other episodes of Fractal Friends that address Race, Diversity and Anti-Oppression.
The Characteristics of Modernist Culture (a.k.a. “Orange” in Spiral Dynamics)
Rational, materialistic, competitive, striving for excellence, elitist, image-sensitive, success and result-orientated and pragmatic
Ambitious and striving for money, status and recognition
Result-driven, in search of progress
Focused planning and strategy to become better
Materialistic focus on competition and needs to win
When you want to do it, you can do it
Versatile, entrepreneurial, and will take up challenges
Flexible and serious
Focused on results, growth, and efficiency
Play the ‘game”; from rags to riches
Image-focused: “You never get a second change for a first impression.”
Want to do “fun” things with “fun” people
The Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture From Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change Groups, by Kenneth Jones and Tema Okun, ChangeWork, 2001
Perfectionism
Sense of Urgency
Defensiveness
Quantity Over Quality
Worship of the Written Word
Paternalism
Either/Or Thinking
Power Hoarding
Fear of Open Conflict
Individualism
Progress is Bigger, More
Objectivity
Right to Comfort
Excerpt from “The Trees” by Duncan Autrey
“Diversity, it’s just you and me.
We all seek the light and strive to do right
in our complexity, which helps us to see
that we all have a role to play in the whole.
And I know, yes I know, there are so many ways to know,
so I’ll search and I’ll seek for other ways to see…”
Poetry & Quotations
“We cannot change the way the world is, but by opening ourselves to the world as it is, we may find that gentleness, decency and bravery are available – not only to us, but to all human beings.”
— Chögyam Trungpa
Excerpt from “The Rime of the Ancient Mariner” by Samuel Taylor Coleridge:
Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.The very deep did rot: O Christ!
That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs
Upon the slimy sea.About, about, in reel and rout
The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green, and blue and white.
Books
Music
Music from this episode is from Sky Nelson-Isaacs. The song is called "Temperature rise and Fall. "
In addition to being a musician, Sky is the author of Living in Flow: The Science of Synchronicity and How Your Choices Shape Your World, the founder of the Synchronicity Institute and a past guest on Fractal Friends. His episode is called “Living in Flow” with Sky Nelson-Isaacs.